Step Up to the Microphone - Part 2
In response to my plea for documentation, to prove that my assertions about Don Estep I are false, I have received the following two responses in particular:
Dear Randy Hazel,
Is christian brother hood meant to slander other brothers and sisters in christ? As far as finacial status I believe you munipulate the government by having a computer bussiness in your wifes name while you draw dissability. My opinion of you is your a liar, if you draw dissabilty because you can't work you should'nt have a computer bussiness. Maybe some other hypocritical member such as yourself may dig up a little on you.(you man of God) My opinion is you should spend more time on your knees praying for your church and the wrongs in it and less time researching your brother in Christ's financial situation, and less time looking at your computer. Randy does the theocratic government mean anything to you? I believe Don Estep was put in office by Brother Pruitt who prayed for divine appointment.
Pray Harder and condemn less
Sincerely,
Timothy Marple
Previous Posters Comments....
"Workman is worth his meat, To get by means so the govt dosent know so they can adjust his Govt check I believe is wrong"
Huh.... Perhaps you should question the beloved saint Automaton on his business practices. As I know it, this lovely little saint opperates under his wifes name, claiming himself to be a part time worker, turning in only the hours and $'s allowed under his govt check regulations, when in fact he is the cheif technician doing the bulk of the work and the backbone and founder of the company. Sounds a little shady to me. In essence, a legal way to be crooked. Theres always a loop hole for every crook to sneak thru.
Before I respond to each post individually I would like to point out something both have in common. What they have in common is the use of a technique called REDIRECTION. The two most successful practitionars of this technique are magicians and politicians. The hand is quicker than the eye, especially when the magician directs you to his right hand so his left hand can hide something up his sleeve. The politician takes heat away from himself by "exposing" some dreadful tidbit about a rival and then showing moral distaste for the brute. You will notice there is no substance in these posts to exonerate Don Estep or to dispute the documentation I have presented, only REDIRECTION.
Post #1
Addressed to "Randy Hazel". My identity I will leave to another post (Coming Soon)
I have "slandered" Don Estep. You might want to know a word's definition before you use it. http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=slander
I am manipulative, a liar and a hypocrit. How can I act in Christian brotherhood or have a brother or sister in Christ? Do you believe in sinning Christians?
If I am a liar and a hypocrit how would my praying for the church help? Shouldn't I be praying for my own salvation instead?
I must at this juncture point out that Timothy Marple is not a member of The Church of God. He is PERHAPS sharing the opinions held by some of his family, who are members of The Church of God.
All the statements are predicated on "My opinion" or "I believe", there is no hard facts of either Don Esteps innocence or my guilt.
The lack of continuity and logic in the post is classic redirection.
Post #2
Once again I am a sneaky crook and a liar. Proof? No, just "as I know it" and "sounds a little shady to me". You should look up the definition for slander as well.
From your detailed description of my "questionable business practices" you are either a client or making statements about things you have no knowledge of. So are you helping me to "cheat" the government by giving me work that I shouldn't do or are you lying about my business practices?
"turning in only the hours and $'s allowed under his govt check regulations" Unless you are my CPA, with the IRS or the SSA how could you possibly know what I "turn in"? More allegations, no proof.
Vitriol, another classic sign of redirection.
Summary:
How does my being a manipulative, lying, hypocritical, sneaky crook exonorate or clear Don Estep of the questions I have posted on this blog? It doesn't. If they can make me look "just as bad" or better yet "worse" than the person in question they REDIRECT your attention.
What about the allegations made against you?
I will answer those in my next post.
posted by Automaton at Friday, May 26, 2006
32 Comments:
Well is this a case of "The Pot Calling The Kettle Black"???
Are you in fact accusing someone of something that you are also guilty of too or guilty of something similiar to what you are accusing Bro. Estep of?
As I said in this post I will answer your quesions about myself in my next post.
The word Accuse or Accusation has the context of "formal charges" see
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=accusation
I was only one of a long list of Bishops, Pastors, Deacons and members who brought "formal charges" against Don Estep. See
http://www.1fold.com/openletter_KYMinisters_2005_10_11_graphic_p1.html
These charges were pushed aside by General Headquarters as though they were unimportant.
The information I have shared on this blog are merely PART of the facts that those "formal charges" were based on.
I did not think this information should just "disappear" and the Kentucky Overseer go his merry way without having to account for his actions.
I have not published ANYTHING here that is not public record (bankruptcy, etc.) or church records (local church offerings, pastor reports to HQ., etc.) which should be public record. Should what we do for God or in God's name be "private"? Aren't our conferences open to the public?
As to ME, what I am doing that some will equate to Don Estep's actions I will detail in my next post.
I knew this day would come and am ready to give an answer to every man. Will Don Estep will as willing to detail his business as I will be?
Are you guilty of these accusations that others have brought up?
I mean if you are then how could you or anyone else who is guilty of such even present yourself for membership of the church?
I am not saying that you are guilty of any charges and I do believe that the accusations brought against you are a way to divert the attention away from the charges against Bro Estep.
But it would be nice if you clarify what is going on, so the attentions can be directed back to the real issue and purpose of this blog.
You know after I get to thinking about this I wonder, Will You Mr Randy owe some restitution to bro estep?
Why weren't these issues brought up before you and the other former members membership was revoked and church disbanned.
If it is such an importance now, then shouldn't it have been then?? Why wasn't the problem dealt with before. You can tell me that Bro Estep was talked and ministered to till I am blue in the face. But the problem wasn't addressed in the manner it should have been. If it had of been and he didn't change his ways and repent then he shouldn't have been left as a member of TCOG. But obviously the problem was either solved or people decided to turn a blind eye to it.
But if he repented and made restitution then he is a clear man, if not then state overseer, pastor and members are at fault for continuing to allow it to happen.
You can't tell me that you are just finding out about this problem since "THE STAND"
Why weren't these issues brought up before you and the other former members membership was revoked and church disbanned.
These issues WERE brought up by the Kentucky Ministers BEFORE the Don Estep's first day in the position (1 Sep 2005). Both in meetings with the Administrative Committee AND via formal charges in a registered letter to General Headquarters. See the below link:
http://www.1fold.com/openletter_KYMinisters_2005_10_11_graphic_p1.html
All those ministers were turned away from General Headquarters like their concerns were unimportant, like it or lump it.
The letter with formal charges was signed for at General Headquarters, but was not seen again and was never addressed.
A Kentucky Bishop of impeccable reputation and service for many years contacted Don Estep and asked him for the good of the state of Kentucky to step down. He flatly refused, no offer to justify himself before the laity, no dialog, once again like it or lump it.
We tried to resolve this the biblical way, going to the individual, the leadership, etc. This was all pushed aside and Bishops, ministers, deacons who have given years to the Church were treated shabbily and ignored.
If it is such an importance now, then shouldn't it have been then?? Why wasn't the problem dealt with before.
I agree, you will have to ask his former Overseer Herman Ard why he was allowed to continue.
Will You Mr Randy owe some restitution to bro estep?
Owe restitution for taking him to the "church" after him refusing to make it right in "private". Read the scripture:
Matthew 018:017 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
Don Estep owes me NOTHING, but he owes the "Church" an explanation for the information I have posted. All this information was presented to General Headquarters "in private" and they brushed it off. So now I bring it to the "Church"
I'm just curious why wasn't it dealt with before the Assembly. If Danny Carter (former State Overseer) had problems with him, why didn't he do something about it, instead he tried to give him a church to pastor a few months before the Assembly..go figure.
ALSO
Some of these problems were here with Danny Carter, Bro. Herman Ard, and Bro. BIll White...You'd think one of these men could have corrected this problem.
Also..the Kentucky Overseer took office on Oct 1, 2005, not Sept. 1, 2005.
My bad, 1 Oct 2005.
Bro. Carter was his Overseer for 1 year. I believe Bro. Carter was moving slow due to being "new" to the position, but you would have to ask him, just my opinion.
Herman Ard was his Overseer for 2 or 3 years (not sure exactly) and when Don was appointed Overseer, Bro. Ard was a member of the Aministrative Committe, who BTW was in the meetings with the Kentucky Ministers and had the opertunity to address the issues they had with Don... Go figure
Thank you Bro Randy for clearing some of that up for me.
But I am still left sort of clueless.
It's like everyone knew what this man was doing for a long time, but when the man makes overseer all hell breaks loose. Proof of Bro Estep's wrongs have been shown to the world.
Why wasn't this blog or other sites here with this proof before he made overseer in oct 2005? He was and is a minister of TCOG, which is a very important role. And if he is not qualified to be an overseer then he is not qualified to be a minister. These charges and PROOF (what 1fold and this site is providing) should have been placed before everyone's eyes to see for themselves, LONG BEFORE HE MADE OVERSEER!
What has happened has happened and we can only pray for a better outcome.
Being a minister is just an important as being an overseer. You saw that he wasn't qualified to be an overseer so you created these sites to provide the proof of your claim. Why didn't you take the time to place the same importance on this issue when he was minister. I know you say you did, but I didn't see these websites being created and providing proof until things exploded in everyones face, when he became overseer.
I could start wearing jewelry or start smoking or a multitude of other sins (without repentance) and if I refuse to resign my membership in the church, then you can bet my pastor and local congretation would take it on themselves to remove my name from the books and revoke my membership.
What is the difference in little ol' member me and big ol' minister him?
Why was he looked over?
Why wasn't this blog or other sites here with this proof before he made overseer in oct 2005?
We took it to him and those over him in the Lord first (in private) and this got us nothing.
Making this info public was our only recourse.
You act as though we were a day late and a dollar short, maybe so, but we in Kentucky have paid the price for standing against someone who is unqualified for a oversight position in the church....
This all makes me wonder why the bulk of those disbanded fron TCOG refused to communicate with Bro. Estep. As I read in some of his letters posted on 1Fold, they were after no response was given to previous letters. Is it not possible for him to have asked to be forgiven for something that he may have done wrong? From my own little investigation it has been brought to my attention that Bro. Estep draws no salary from his 'SO' position, or from his pastor position in the newly formed church in springfield. Maybe you can research this for us and post some documents either way?
I cant help but feel that maybe Bro. Carter hated to loose the area he had and the $$ it brought to him? Maybe he hated it so much that he helped to get this fire started? And with the help of the Willisburg congregation (who greatly adored him & whos cash cow member didnt like Bro.Estep due to a previous matter) influenced a lot of other congregations to go along with him. It seems to me (just my opinion) that this boils down to the same thing it usually does, money and position.
Please understand Auto that despite the attempts by past posters to (as you say) redirect the focus of the topic, this is not my intention. Im just interested in knowing the whole truth.
If this is a case of "The pot calling the kettle black" Then I would truly be appauled at you as I know you and your family personally. This is lower than I thought you would ever stoop even if these things about Bro. Estep were true. Did you ever try to minister to him on the things you post about him? Did your father? Did Bro.Phelps? Did Bro. Carter?(just to name a few). You mentioned a "Kentucky Bishop of impeccible reputation" who did, I see also that it was brought up in a meeting of the administrative committee and in a registered letter to GH, but I believe it is the duty of us all as disciples of Christ to try and minister to others,, especially those in the church.
You act as though we were a day late and a dollar short, maybe so, but we in Kentucky have paid the price for standing against someone who is unqualified for a oversight position in the church....
Not saying exactly that but the documents you have shown are Year(s) old and if you took it to him back then and nothing happened, why didn't you go to the public back then?
The way I see it everyone picked a fine time (using "Fine Time" sarcastically) to get things done.
I mean you had time before the assembly to get this done.
Bro Carter looked over don's wrongs while he (don) was a minister in his region, why did he (carter)wait and then decide he (don) wasn't qualified when he got half of his region?
That makes no sense...
I mean are your understanding what I am asking or saying?
I have heard about the altercation with the member at Willisburg and BroDon. What was that all about?If you could shed a little light on that it would be good! Does seem a little odd that after that every thing calmed down and then it blew up again when he was appointed SO.
Would God allow a man who was not mentaly compitent to lead his Church? Would God allow a man who was unfit, to oversee a region of his Church? Would god turn members of his church over to a repubate mind for denying his chosen leadership?
Bro. Carter did not overlook Bro. Don's faults, he was trying to give him a chance. After all, he had only been the RO for a short time. Give me a break! Get off your soapbox! Whaa, Whaa, Whaa...somebody call the Whambulance! (IMO)
He was trying to give him a chance by offering him a church?!?!? If he did not overlook his faults then why did he try to give him a church a few months before the General Assembly AND he also told him he felt it was God's will. I don't understand that at all.
Maybe he thought if Bro. Don got busy in his own business in a new location, then maybe he would keep his nose out of everybody else's business in the area where he lived. IMO
There could be many reasons why that offer was made. Being a leader yourself, I'm sure you understand that every decision a pastor makes cannot and should not be explained. If the pastor obeys the voice of the Holy Ghost, I'm sure even the pastor doesn't understand every appointment he himself makes.
If Bro. Carter seen fit for Don to pastor over a church, then he shouldn't have a problem with him being an overseer.
Maybe he thought if Bro. Don got busy in his own business in a new location, then maybe he would keep his nose out of everybody else's business in the area where he lived. IMO
First off this mentality isn't the way things are supposed to be done in the church. No one, no pastor, nobody should give someone leadership that they are not qualified for just so they can keep them off there back and out of CHURCH BUSINESS! And yeah Bro Carter probably listened to what the Holy Ghost wanted him to do when he offered Bro Don a church....And the Holy Ghost is carrying on with his work in Bro Don today.
I just read the two previous posts. To try and speculate as to why Bro. Carter did whatever is futile. This only genders heartache and strife. Haven't we had enough? If you have questions, talk to Bro. Carter, however I doubt he will discuss his business with you. One thing I know is he is an honorable man and he does not have to be accountable to anyone but God himself. He is a wonderful man of God and his good name will continue. We love you Brother Carter. Thank you for all you have done to protect The Church and to preserve the integrity of The Church of God. I trust you as one who HAS NOTHING TO HIDE!
Come on people. We all used to be the same region. Please, don't let these things destroy you. Regardless of the outcome, we must love one another. I realize it's difficult to face the cold hard facts about some of these things. If you have questions GO TO THAT PERSON, OR ARE YOU AFRAID? Maybe you don't want to know the truth. Maybe you wouldn't believe it even if you heard it. If you already have your mind made up, then drop it!!!Please.
"Carter dosent have to be accountable to any one but God..."
What makes him so special?
Who says' Bro. Estep should have to be held accountable to anyone but God? Is Carter better than he? I think if Carter was ok with him then, he should be ok with him now. Makes me feel like the past poster who talked about $$ and position may have a point. We all must look back and realize that God's will will prevail.. His plan will be carried out.. Rather or not any of you like who he (God, not Carter) chooses to, oversee, pastor in, serve as sunday school superintendant of, or sing in the choir of his church, his will will be done. I support Bro. Estep.. I have heard many of his sermons, I have spoken with him many times, I feel that he has a sincere heart and a love for TCOG and everyone in it, his wonderful spirit can be felt and detected while in his presence. And despite those of you that choose to run him in the ground, post these personal things about him amd make rude comments about him, he loves you too and would love to see you put down your personall preferences and accept those that God has chosen to be your leaders, and come home to the Church that we all love and adore, with a warm welcome. As of now I feel that those of you that have opposed his appointment are in contempt of the covenant that you took upon joining the Church, and are in danger of the fires of hell. I urge you to repent and come back and be a part of the bride. I wil be sincerely praying for your souls.
Don't put words in my mouth. Are you one of those who already have your mind made up? I didn't say nobody was accountable to God but BROTHER Carter. BROTHER Estep is too. I've said that I like Bro. Estep. Have you had your head stuck in the sand? Haven't you read the facts? This whole appointment was manipulated. Is that theocracy?I have absolutely NOTHING against Bro. Estep. I feel he has been used by HQ. I feel he and Bro. Carter both were caught in an unfortunate play for power by HQ. The facts on Nabors have all come out. He is a scoundrel. Don't hold Bro. Carter to blame for all of this. There are some facts that you don't know concerning Ard,Estep,Nabors, and after the Presbytery meeting is over and the investigations begin, I'm sure much will come out. The difference between Bro. Carter and Bro. Estep is that one was willing to be bought off and one wasn't. Debating this issue here is not going to solve anything. Let's leave it to the ones who can do something about it. ok? God Bless
We are so close to a resolve on these issues. Don't let the devil discourage you now. Don't say these harsh things, it is unprofitable. The Bible says that whatever is of God will stand and whatever is not of God will fall. All people and all situations are in God's hands and in God's judgement. Relax. God's will be done. Sending your soul to hell over this is needless. If you must do something, get on your knees. The Holy Ghost will reveal the truth. As one who stands with Brother Carter, I am not afraid to say that. Anyone who can't get along with him , can't get along with anyone. There's alot of people who are going to feel pretty foolish when this is over. Why don't you call him? He's a pretty good guy to talk to. I know he won't hang up on you or treat you bad. I feel like anyone who won't let this die is because they like controversy. That kind of spirit is of the devil. Why can't we do our part to put out the fire instead of kindle it? LOL
We are so close to a resolve on these issues. Don't let the devil discourage you now. Don't say these harsh things, it is unprofitable. The Bible says that whatever is of God will stand and whatever is not of God will fall. All people and all situations are in God's hands and in God's judgement. Relax. God's will be done. Sending your soul to hell over this is needless. If you must do something, get on your knees. The Holy Ghost will reveal the truth. As one who stands with Brother Carter, I am not afraid to say that. Anyone who can't get along with him , can't get along with anyone. There's alot of people who are going to feel pretty foolish when this is over. Why don't you call him? He's a pretty good guy to talk to. I know he won't hang up on you or treat you bad. I feel like anyone who won't let this die is because they like controversy. That kind of spirit is of the devil. Why can't we do our part to put out the fire instead of kindle it? LOL
Above poster, you are right.
We should drop this and let this die; right along with this site being deleted. It does nothing more but cause the flames of the fire to rise.
Now 1fold presented the facts in a tasteful and concerned spirit and in good manner. This site did not.
1fold didn't say ulgy and nasty things about others they just presented the facts
1fold didn't post silly and offensive pictures.
1fold didn't downgrade others, they just presented the facts.
God Bless.
A million Amens to the last post! God Bless.
Somewhat off the subject but still on it, I want to know what is up with all the "anonymous" posts.
If you have so much to say, be a man or woman and state your name. I am reminded of a song lyric, "...coward in the service he will find no place..." You sure can dish it out to Bro. Randy, but you obviously won't do it to his face b/c you are hiding behind the anon name.
By the way, "anonymous" who is the "cash cow" you were referring to at Willisburg? GROW UP!
Who am I? PATRICIA BUCIO - The Church of God at Willisburg, KY
Someone has struck a nerve.
They start asking for names when the focus is, "redirected" as "Bro" Randy said. I dont recall him reveiling his identity as of yet.(6-9-06) It has only been revealed by another poster.
Good question, who is this "cash cow" that was mentioned? Whats up with that? Bucio? are you the 3-02 thru 8-02 clerk on the financial report that "Bro" Randy has posted? As for my Identity I will reveal in my next post (!!!).
This is all very childish and distasteful. As someone who is not a member of TCOG reviewing this blog, I can whole heartedly say that it is not an organization that I would want to join. With such termoil between members who would want to be tangled up in that? I have family in TCOG. In fact most of the congregation at willisburg is in someway kin to me. I attended TCOGOP all thru my childhood, and attended TCOG off/on in the past few years and at one time was seriously considering joining. When I tell you who I am some of you may or may not know me, some of you will say that I am sharing the beliefs of my family and some will say who cares, hes not a member. But rest asured I am of able mind and am not influenced by my family, be it those who stand for or against Bro Don. I believe all of you should review the 'Overseers Desk' section on 1fold, where Bro.Carter urges you to "put aside needless conversation and things that are not profitable". As for your post about reveiling names Patricia, I feel you are only asking for trouble. All this ' he said she said' business is for the birds. As I said, I know a lot of people in TCOG and you are all above all this.
Just an outsider looking in with an oppinion...........
B.Hawkins
I feel Brother Carter dealt with everything I believe in the way God would have wanted him to. Why didnt he dealt with Don Estep immediately? Do you realize the mess Herman Ard left him in? Herman Ard drained the finances of the region and left many problems unattended...Brother Carter hands were full and couldnt have possibly dealt with everything at once... but I believe with a little time he would have dealt with it...He only had one year to do it....Now I do agree with the stand that region has taken, but I do not necessarly agree with this site.
Don Estep Sr. has had a stroke. Can we all stop discussing these issues long enough to pray for him?
Pray for him? Looks like they hate him to me. GOOOOOD christians here!! They've probobally been to busy to pray for themselfes with all this bickering and fussing and finger pointing. I say woopdy doo, who ggives a squat. God will show the way no matter who is rite and who is rong. (spelt some wrong, maybe theyll disfellowship me!!) WAAh WAAh WAAh give it up allready you pack of hipocrites, like a bunch of wolves eating on a dead deer. Let the lite of your Church shine on the world, Carter has tought you well, you ninees.
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